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May 2011
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Ys [userpic]

(If you don't have the context for any of this, then trust me, you're better off. Just treat it as general philosophical musings.)

Transcendence is one of those things that is amazing and wonderful and nearly impossible to communicate to anyone else effectively. Religions are all about someone having had a moment of transcendence and trying to communicate to other people how they could experience the same thing, and they are mostly about failing to manage to do so.

To make it worse, when you've just had a transcendent moment, you're likely to be on a "high" from it and really wanting to share that high with other people.

Unfortunately, managing to effectively communicate even a trivially simple transcendence is incredibly difficult. If what you experienced was a momentary transcendence of a giant cultural minefield, filled with centuries of baggage and vast depths of justifiable anger, then not only is it likely to be impossible to communicate, but it's an even more wonderful experience in the moment and you're so unlikely to be in a headspace that's good for effective navigation of treacherous waters that you're doomed before you even start thinking about talking about it.

And I cannot express how sad that makes me. Except that it's enough that I can't even summon my usual misanthropy to distance myself.

(And yes, it makes it worse for me personally that the transcendence in question was about touch, and I am a profoundly kinesthetic person in a very touch-hostile world.)

Current Mood: crushedcrushed

100% with you on this.

I sympathise with the experience of the uncommunicable leap of transcendent insight, which does not mean I don't keep beating my head off trying to communicate it anyway, and also with the difficulties of finding good ways to be touch-positive.

I think I know the context of which you speak, and yeah... seriously. What the fuck. The idea was genius. The execution? Not so much.

There are always idiots and morons who will ruin any sort of social leap, and drag a whole metric ton of baggage along with their skeezy selves.

You can't let 'em get you down though. You can't let others drag your enlightenment though the mud. People get the most jealous regarding their emotional baggage and expect that everyone else should be lugging the same trunk full of non-sense along with them. Fuck that.

Drop whatever baggage you want. Do your thing. Nuts to everyone else.

Also, can I?

You can definitely ask in person. I'll most likely say yes.

You're very welcome. I realized that when I replied to you elsewhere with the kernel that became this, that I wanted to say the whole thing.

Heh heh.. you said "misantrhopy". Love it. I too bathe in misanthropy on occasion. People get annoyed and worried when I'm not so bouncy, er, "kinesthetic" as well. Sometimes I feel people leech off of me because of my energy. Sometimes I don't mind. Sometimes I get weary of it. Good luck with that.

See, I've been struggling with my "No Touchee" demons for some time now. I have a bubble 'round me many, many times where it feels like I can't allow touch. I haven't figured out yet if it's some kind of subconscious thing telling me there's something wrong with that person, or if it's completely all my past programming attempting sabotage. Eye contact is sometimes just about the most anxiety-ridden thing too, but sometimes it's just a natural thing... It's a bit of a convoluted mind-mess really, and will likely take some time to sort through.

While I'm sorting all that GIGO stuff out, I've decided to only allow the new people near me that I'm completely comfortable being touchy with and that don't leave me feeling naked and vulnerable when I meet eyes. You and Company are welcome to share my space, anytime. *grin* I can always use a little more of The Spice in my life.

I appreciate that!

And for the record, if I ever meet you, I will hug you tight.

I'd like that.

How differently different people can see things. I was already puzzled that you could have a transcendent experience through touch . . . and that you could be all the more reticent about telling people about it . . . but now I see from the comments that this arises from the Open Source Boob Project?

Wow. From letting people grope your breasts?

Each to her own. But wow. New idea.

. . . theferrett's post has put paid to my ever going to a convention. Now that I know there may well be people there who think attendance at a convention means "Ask me if you can fondle me" rather than "I trust you not to fondle me, and accordingly I wore something nicer than usual to give you a nice view." Being asked does not make it ok, in my view--it's pestering. Because that's not what one paysto attend a con for . . . unless it says "Swingers" right there in the con info. If it says SF, or Linux, or geeks . . . why on earth would I want to be subjected to being asked if I want my boobs handled? Let alone asked to wear a green badge ("Yeah! Bring it on!") or a red one ("Ask me ask me ask me! I need persuading!") Where's the "I demand a refund" button or the "I thought we were friends, I trusted you" button?

I thought theferrett was a nice guy. I thought you--of all people--understood the difference between "I want to be able to follow my bliss" and "Everyone should want to follow the same bliss as me" . . . or even "Everyone with breasts should want to follow the same bliss as me."

I don't want kids either, but some people desperately do. Does that mean I have to want them? or even to be asked repeatedly, "Don't you want kids?" My religion doesn't seek transcendence. Do you want to tell me I have to want transcendence?

I think you know I am not anti-sex. But I'm very anti-bait-and-switch. And I have friends who've been trying to get me to make the time--and spend the money--to go to a con. Sadly, this puts the nail in that coffin. And . . . damnit . . . I thought you people understood about observing boundaries so that we can all blossom without fear, in our own way. There are women out there who have been raped. There are women out there who have just been drawn out of their fear of sexuality by loving, caring partners. There are women out there who have just got up the courage to display their bodies. Let people decide what venue they want to go to, and let touch express genuine caring. This is such a disappointing step backwards into an era when showing your tits meant you were "easy" and going somewhere without a bodyguard meant you were "asking for it." Those who love boob touches--touch each others' boobs. Don't hijack a Linux convention!

I am just appalled that there is this gap of understanding. I would much, much rather have heard you maunder on about the insights of your transcendent experience than learned that you meant "I enjoyed being touched, aww damnit, some spoilsports didn't." One has nothing to do with the other, and being made to conform to someone else's idea of happiness is no freedom at all.

I'll be over here in the sex shop.


a) I wasn't involved. I haven't been to a con in years.

b) Now that I know there may well be people there who think attendance at a convention means "Ask me if you can fondle me" rather than "I trust you not to fondle me, and accordingly I wore something nicer than usual to give you a nice view."

If you didn't already know that there are people like that out there, not just at cons but pretty much everywhere, then you live a far more sheltered life than I do. The existance of that, and far worse forms of both blatant and insidious sexism are a big part of the cultural mess I was talking about transcending.

Luckily, the folks who did what theferrett was trying to describe are nothing like that, and did nothing like what you describe. The fact that you take something that's nothing like what actually happened and use it as a reason to avoid what could be a positive experience is...well, just sad.

c) I thought you--of all people--understood the difference between "I want to be able to follow my bliss" and "Everyone should want to follow the same bliss as me"

I've not suggested that anyone should follow the same bliss as me. In fact, nowhere in any of this did I even talk about what my bliss is. I firmly believe that each person must follow their own path.

d) Do you want to tell me I have to want transcendence?

No. I'm saying it's sad that someone's transcendence has been taken so badly out of context and turned into a huge pile of accusation and speculation and anger over things that didn't happen.

Please read what I wrote rather than ranting at me about things I didn't say. The trivialization and complete discarding of my point to get "I enjoyed being touched, aww damnit, some spoilsports didn't," is incredibly insulting.

This is why the world needs technical writers!